kathy
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by kathy on May 4, 2006 15:25:22 GMT -5
I'm going to start this although I know it will be a rehash of previous months and because I'm going out of town for a few days. anyway. one thing I've noticed in the books i've read about this case is that CAL's character becomes obvious to many of the writers even though that doesn't seem to have been the intent. My premise is CAL didn't protect or consider his family other than as an extention of himself, and I think the family knew this. The baby's health was jeprodized prenatally when Anne was forced to fly without oxygen for hours. The baby ws left without parents for months and in the care of a nurse that the family knew little about for several months. Later this man left his family for long periods of time to be cared for by their mother to the detriment of the his relationship with his children. this to father at least 7 children by three other women. There of course is more but this is enough in my mind to show CAL didn't protect or value his family. MY feeling is that character does matter in determining a persons actions and choices. I think this question is a fundamental difference in the way this case is viewed by those of us that study it.
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Post by Rita Witt on May 4, 2006 21:07:08 GMT -5
CAL was a strange combination of alter personalities. He had the vicious personality Turpentine joke, and he had a troublesome clash of personality claiming need for privacy, but then chasing public appearances and parades every chance available. He courted Elizabeth then married Anne after only a few days away from Elizabeth. To top off every thing in the site below when questioned by a reporter he avoids questions on sexual desires and can only explain aviation, but then he fathers 7 or more children away from his wife secretly. Could almost be split personality complex. away.com/primedia/transport/reluctant_celebrity_1.adp
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Post by Mouse on May 4, 2006 22:43:02 GMT -5
I've never been able to understand why people would think that when a celebrity is touring (CAL was promoting aviation - just as an actor might promote a movie on Letterman's or Leno's show) that it leaves them open to questions about their private lives. What they do on their own time should be nobody's business, IMHO!
And actually, did CAL really date Elisabeth? Or was that a storyline created by the press. I can only quote Hertog right now, but she said, "The marriage of Charles and Elisabeth was 'inevitable'. Life magazine would probably print a special issue.The fact that they had neither dated nor spent time alone with each other seemed irrelevant." Doesn't sound like any kind of a relationship that would leave Elisabeth feeling rejected to me! Especially when you consider her leanings toward lesbianism! (Constance Chilton)
I couldn't find anything strange about the interview at the link provided - sounded a lot like some other interviews I've read with many celebrities! "I'm here to help further aviation, what could my dating possibly have to do with that?" I'm sorry, I can't fault him there.
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Post by Rita Witt on May 4, 2006 23:11:47 GMT -5
You forgot about Dwight Sr advising that Elizabeth was not to be left alone with Charley. You miss a lot of actual history when you make authoritative statements. All our members are familiar with details of Lindbergh's excesses, and it sounds as if you are trying to modify facts to suit or whitwash others knowledge of the case?
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Post by Mouse on May 4, 2006 23:58:58 GMT -5
No, I didn't forget about that tale about Dwight S. and Elisabeth, I just didn't think it had anything to do with what we were discussing (which was CAL and his character, no?). Not adding something that's irrelevant to a particular conversation is now "missing a lot of actual history" I was not making any authoritative statements (or didn't mean to) except to state MY opinion and what I was basing them on. That's why I quoted Hertog. Not trying to whitewash, just trying to present all of the facts! And what exactly did I modify, Rita? ? (Not that I think you'll answer this question.) If my opinions that differ from yours make you uncomfortable then I'll just shut up! But I don't see why it's OK for you to make statements based on things from a movie but then accuse me of modifying facts when I quote from a biography! Again, it appears that you don't like anyone to voice an opinion that doesn't coincide with yours. Who's doing the whitewashing here? I just don't happen to think CAL was involved in the way that you do. Sorry!!
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Post by Rita Witt on May 5, 2006 0:37:19 GMT -5
Hold on a minute, it's not your job to revue and correct other people, and if you feel such a need you are in the wrong place. You appear to be a VD'r in mouse disguise, and recite nonsense on the level of Kevkon and Pbm. We don't detract from every post you make, but it seems that you have been critical or contrary to every post you have entered here, and I recommend you post to only those you can support. We don't have a section or position for board critic, but it seems your ambition to set ever one here straight.
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Post by Mouse on May 5, 2006 9:01:56 GMT -5
<sigh> No, Rita - I've told you before, I'm not a VDer, but I'm not a CAL basher either. I'm obviously not as well-read on this subject as you are and am obviously not as serious a detective as you are, but I do have opinions based on what I have read. I repeat - not a verdict defender!!!! I would like to see Richard cleared as much as you would but not at CAL's expense. I think he was many things, but not responsible for his son's death.
You don't seem to see that you are doing exactly the same thing that you accused the VDers on Ronelle's board of doing to you, to me.
**...it seems that you have been critical or contrary to every post you have entered here...**
Except for where I've tried to help others find info that they were looking for (floor plans, letters from parents at time of kidnappyng, the doctor's letter, etc).
Like I've told Rick, I don't think that Richard did it. But I don't think that CAL was involved either.
I will no longer comment on YOUR mistaken remarks, or try to give YOU a different aspect of something that you're saying or idea that you have that I don't agree with!
Rick, I hope you don't mind our little debates - I was enjoying them, dispite our differences in opinions. You have some good ideas!
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Post by apology for Rita on May 5, 2006 10:11:28 GMT -5
Rita, I want to apologize if I DID sound argumentative or judgemental in some posts. That isn't my intent at ALL! I do like to play the Devil's Advocate and maybe make people think. And I try to do it with information I can back up. That's all.
I didn't mean to sound snarky in my last post (well, maybe a little LOL) - being accused of being a sneaky VDer got my hackles up - made me feel like you were calling me a liar. I truly do think that BRH was innocent; we just don't agree on who may have really been guilty.
So, bottom line - I will refrain from responding to your posts and try not to piss you off any more if I respond to someone elses.
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Post by rick62 on May 5, 2006 10:29:28 GMT -5
Lets all play nice and agree to disagree? Like the UN? US Senate?
I think Cals character or lack thereof may ultimately play a key role in the unraveling of the LKC. As of yet we dont have a clear cut, for certain, Motive or Theory of the Case or Hoax.
If the putative kidnap at Highfields is disscociated from the Blackmail in the Bronx AND Charlie is murdered immediately, then we clearly have a Revenge Motive. In other words, someone or some group was so pissed off at CAL they just murdered Charlie to make him pay. Paybacks are a pregnant dog!
Other competing Theories:
1. Al Capone "gets out of jail" theory. Here CAL says NO! Even if someone else has to die? Callous?
2. Crazy local Maniac theory? Charles Shippell?
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Post by Mouse on May 5, 2006 10:48:50 GMT -5
I thought we had agreed to that a few days ago. **1. Al Capone "gets out of jail" theory. Here CAL says NO! Even if someone else has to die? Callous? ** I agree, Rick, if that was how it really played out. But do you think that CAL really had the pull with the Federal Government to get that (Capone's release) accomplished? Side note - there's a very old prison in Philly (supposedly the first one there!), Eastern State Penitentiary, that held Capone for a short while. The place is a "museum" now (I use the term loosely because it is literally falling apart in a lot of places!), but they've tried to recreate his cell as accurately as possible. I cracked up - beautiful desk, easy chair, reading lamp, artwork on the walls, rug! Too bizarre!!!
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Post by Rita Witt on May 5, 2006 12:17:24 GMT -5
Kathy placed a new thread on Lindberg's Character, and your response changes the post direction from character to theory. I don't believe I have entered wrongly here as The split personality I have described is in keeping the subject of the topic. I think there is plenty of CAL's character defect to go around for good conversation to politely answer within the subject territory, and without subject snub which is very disagreeable to the posting party. If you don't like the posted subject you should just refrain from posting on it and let others interested answer the post? If you posted a topic how would you like it if other just chastised you post and started there own diatribe ignoring your original post subject.
I suggest posting some interesting topics that you can have fun with, as I have started this forum for friendly non argumentative posting. For instance I started a Charley Seance Corner simply to take a break from over heating argumentation which is not the intention of this forum.
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Post by rick62 on May 5, 2006 13:08:22 GMT -5
Charles Augustus Lindbergh is The All American Idol and National Hero....in 1932 he was bigger than the Pres. and the American Flag! He was valued a National Treasure.
As such, CAL automatically gets everything he really wants and rejects or disposes of any thing he doesnt want.
He begs to have his olde buddy Lt. James J. Finn put on the case immediately after the kidnap. Just like certain Presidents he surrounds himself with synchophant Yes Men of his own likeing. Finn never found out a single thing--some gas station attendent names Walter Lyle turned BRH in himself. Meanwhile Fisch was laundering the Gold Certs for 18 months unabetted! If it wernt for Lyle there never would have been a trial.
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anne50
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by anne50 on May 5, 2006 15:03:24 GMT -5
Rick, you echo my sentiment exactly: if Lyle had never turned Hauptmann in there never would have been a trial; furthermore, Hauptmann would never have been executed. anne50
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Post by Rita Witt on May 5, 2006 18:27:15 GMT -5
Wasn't the gas station near the Temple of Divine Power? I posted somewhere the conversation Hauptmann had with Walter was of familiar person commenting on how many gold certificates were left. Such a statement implies more was said, perhaps their mutual friend of the conversation had more gold certificates, or perhaps Walter asked if Fish had more to sell him? This statement implies the subject was left out, and no one tells a stranger how many more gold certificates they have.
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Post by Rita Witt on May 6, 2006 0:48:47 GMT -5
to Mouse Have fun posting on any board, and I do appreciate your information. What I look at in the board is that others do have different opinions and try to find information for all opinions, at least outside of VD'r theory. The Lindbergh Case is a case with 1,001 leads, and regardless which topic or opinion you choose you are probably thin the neighborhood of a reasonable theory.
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Post by rick62 on May 6, 2006 18:57:05 GMT -5
Hi Rita/ yes the gas station was just around the corner from the Occult Church and accrossed the street from Fischs rooming house on E. 129th street. There is a photo and map on page175 of Inside the Medium's cabinet by Joe Dunninger. The proximity is uncanny.
Maybe Fisch passed Gold certs there in 1933 before heading for Leipsig? The general vicinity was Fisch's homebase. And also said to be near to Septimus Banks speakeasy?
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Post by Rita Witt on May 6, 2006 21:43:53 GMT -5
I think it can be realized that no person just says, I only have so many gold certificates left. There is no subject in that statement, and think the prosecution was desperate to use this statement that leaves out who or for what reason it was said.
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Post by rick62 on May 7, 2006 7:06:47 GMT -5
Hi Rita/ unless another accidental coincidence, BRH must have felt safe buying gas at that location. After all its not near his own house.
Maybe Fisch had bought gas there for BRH before he went home? Maybe the attendent knew not to cross Fisch and his underworld connections. But he decided to turn BRH in mindedly or absentmindedly? Im certain they never asked Lyle if he knew Fisch? Too obvious since it was just doors away. Oops, just another lead left hanging.
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anne50
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by anne50 on May 7, 2006 7:25:11 GMT -5
It looks to me as though poor old Hauptmann was set to be framed from the inception of this whole caper, possibly by Fisch or someone who knew the two of them quite well. anne50
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Post by Rita Witt on May 7, 2006 17:27:12 GMT -5
Rosner most likely set up Hauptmann by using his friend Fish to deliver the gold certificates to Hauptmann. It seems most likely because kidnaps do not take months to communicate details of price and exchange. It's hard to believe that the NJSP and Wilentz used malicious evidence and ignored a basic kidnap fact to prosecute Hauptmann.
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anne50
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by anne50 on May 7, 2006 19:17:22 GMT -5
Hi, Rita. Anyone as jealous as Wilentz was of Hauptmann would do anything to scotch his, Hauptmann's, life. anne50
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Post by rick3 trooperII on May 7, 2006 19:23:54 GMT -5
Kevcon on the rival board tried to argue (make escuses) that CAL was a first time kidnap parent and all his many mistakes did not constitute a hoax or colllusion with Jafsie?
1. Hamstringing the NJSP and BOI. 2. Calling off the bloodhounds and trackers first nite 3. Threatening to shoot cops if they disobeyed. 4. Failure to let the staff be interviewed in spite of an insider contact 5. Hiring go-between after go-between for the first 8 days until Jafsie applies: Breckenridge, Rosner, Spitz, Bitale, owney Madden, Curtis 6. Hiring Condon based on an answer to the Bronx Home News 7. Letting Rosner copy the Nursery Note and taking it to NYC 8. Letting Schwarzkopf mediate the cops/ he was a floorwalker at Bambergers Dept store in Morristown 9. Letting 4 colonels plan the strategy they knew nothing about 10. Picking a sleeping suite for an identy checkup? 11. Riding around on John H. Curtis yacht for 19 days looking for the Mary B. All these collosal blunders could have been avoided.
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Post by Rita Witt on May 7, 2006 23:00:20 GMT -5
I have a suspicion that there was more to the Mersman Table story, and the gang that framed Hauptmann may have been a Purple Gang Member with connections in the Hopewell area.
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Post by rick62 on May 8, 2006 3:57:02 GMT -5
Rita/ I like your bootlegger theory! Even if its not all brand spanking new it was off the radar for quite a while--at least mine. In that regard I have read that Lindberghs personality was just about as much fun as watching milk sour. He didnt drink or dance and likely put down others that did. Essentially he was a judge-mental Puritan in aviators clothing. He was reported to fly up and down the East Coast spotting rumrunners and turning them into the Feds. Maybe this is why the Bootleggers taunted him with all the Boad Theories and knew all of the Ports up and down the East Coast. The seabound mob might just be clever enough to blame Charlies demise on the NSDAP! I still cant figure out how CAL would know so early on who had ripped Charlie? Unless he really didnt. it must have become apparent pretty soon/ Maybe Rosner,Spitale, Bits and Madden brought back the information pretty quick. Prohibition was a huge...hipocritical mess...most cops just looked the other way with a beer in one hand. Even Septimus Banks and Violet Sharpe were frequienting road hourses and speakeasys? Maybe CAL diaapproved? Do you think?
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Post by kathy for rita on May 8, 2006 15:29:53 GMT -5
rita, ive always thought there was something strange about Betty Gow's short lived career in detroit. wasn't scotty gow part of the purple gang?
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Post by Rita Witt on May 8, 2006 22:40:45 GMT -5
To Kathy Betty Gow was visiting with Scotty Gow in Detroit, and her presence was noted by the Ford Motor Investigator who questioned Scotty at his house. Scotty was a Ford Plant Security Manager that had been diverting steel deliveries to a Purple Gang Junk Yard. Why did Wilentz protect her on that subject by producing an affadavit that the Detroit Scotty was not her brother, which was obviously untrue?
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Post by rick62 on May 9, 2006 10:17:57 GMT -5
Rita/ Nothing should be too surprizing in this case--especially NOT the uneven and unequal distribution of Justice:
1. Gow and Whateley get a free pass from CAL right from the nite of the snatch and onwards. Violet Sharpe on the other hand, gets the 3rd and 4th degree and a cup of cyanide. Clearly Gow and Whateley have insider information acquired directly at Highfields--their truth needs to be protected.
2. Condon blows $50,000 dollars on a Dr. Denton sleeping suite. Walsh wants him arrested for either obstruction of Justice or just plain olde accomplice. He gets a free pass from Breckenridge and CAL so are we to assume hes "doing the Masters dirtywork"? Curtis meets with the Scandanavian gang in 2 or 3 locations: Dynamite, Larsen, Neils, John, Hilda, Inez etc.....then takes CAL on a wild goose chase up and down the East Coast for 19 sailing days. Whats he get--another Free Pass and a $1000 fine. But Gaston Means who cons Evalyn Walsh McClean out of $104,000 gets realtime and a death sentence for his efforts to holp get Charlie back? Apparently he did not have the Boss' Blessings?
Justice in the LKC is clearly not blind but peeking/
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Post by Rita Witt on May 9, 2006 15:05:06 GMT -5
There was no justice in this case as you have noted, because the kidnap was used to silence Lindbergh and had to be permanent. The only way permanent silence could be achieved was to hold CAL Jr. permanently in order to hold Lindbergh attention. If the body found would have been CAL Jr. do you think CAL would have kept silent about the bootleg and drugs? The child was in the vicinity but not where he was told. Curtis brought CAL close enough for the kidnappers to observe CAL without him knowing.
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Post by rick62 on May 10, 2006 9:05:49 GMT -5
Lindbergh's character was fatally flawed--in more than one measurable way: 1. Sick practical jokes--injured his own friends and potentially injured Charlie, if he did coverup was insured. 2. Anti-semetic--even though very popular in the 1930s, he and henry Ford were "active" not passive 3. Pro-German, pro-Reich, pro-Hitler, pro-Nazi, pro-Goring--this is CALs most fatal flaw. He talked about isolationism, but missed the fact that if it were up to him and his flawed judgement : We Would All Be Speaking German Today! -- Sig HeilFDR, Winston Churchhill and Stalin crushed the Third Riech and its totally sick dehumanizing evil Axis of Power: news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/10/newsid_3497000/3497115.stm
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Post by Rita Witt on May 12, 2006 0:42:29 GMT -5
I agree that CAL had let his fame go to his head, and his biggest mistake was thinking himself so important that no one could oppose him. I believe Charley is still paying for CAL's ego, especially if taken to the Cali Drug Cartel by the Purple Gang.
The only problem with the FDR ideal is that he set up Stalin who also commited Genocide, and he was threatening the same genocide for western europe that he had commited in under his control. FDR backing communism and young communists in Germany who machine gunned established political gatherings and assasinated old political figures essentialy put Hitler in power. It should be noted by all amatuer historians that FDR backed a ciminal Stalin who had already killed milions in his ethnic cleansing programs, and all of western europe fell to Hitler wrather than become victem to Stalin and his FDR blessings.
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