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Post by rick62country PI on Apr 9, 2006 22:11:08 GMT -5
Hi Rita/ thanks for this link. Since 1932 there have been rumors, rumblings that something wasnt right about Charlie. Dr. Van Ingen his ped, said he had a square head and rickets? this must have given CAL fits? Good thing VAn Ingen dodged a bullet by passing on the Baby id and did not testify.
In Murder of Justice it was found that Charlie was deaf and dumb. this rumor came thru Betty Gow after the snatch to a local nurse.
One thing is certain, the whole reason for the kidnap was Charlies poor health. They said bad colde? [half truthes abound] maybe if Charlie would have been alowed outside, he wouldnt need a sunlamp and would be here today? Bad luck there.
Something was wierd about Charlies hair. onthe olde board someone discovered Nodules on his hair. Also in the photos it looks bleached? certain congenital defects are diagnosed by hair abnormalities.
lastly--no photos since his first birthday. This is truly unbelievable unless the family had something to hide besides folded toes? the billboard photos for his search were over 8 months olde/ Wacky?
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kathy
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by kathy on Apr 9, 2006 22:19:15 GMT -5
there were many coincidences there starting with rumors, the fact the lindberghs chose that location for their home, CALs change of professions and his work with carrel; all this immediately following the baby's birth. on top of this the unanswered questions aoubt the timing of the kidnapping and the incredible knowledge of the lindberghs schedules/routines.
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Post by carol on Apr 9, 2006 22:25:57 GMT -5
I copied and pasted this from the Ellis Parker Tribute page. I don't know who posted this or whether or not it's true. But what reason would whoever posted this have to lie? None that I can think. Then, there's the forensic analysis of Charlie's hair that was done by Stan Lane that should those abnormalities.
COMMENTS: It is amazily that one of Charles best friends, who by the way live down the street, told me a story about the kidnapping before he died. First, Ihave read every story, newspaper and article on this subject,and nowhere does it mention that baby was mentally handicapped. This friend of Charles, that the baby was never seen outside of the house, except by pictures only. The friends of the family were never able to see the baby for theirselves. But as friends sometimes tell each other things, this things come out. Through all our conversatons, it always cameo to this: The family had planned this from the start, because of the embarrisment that would be brough their perfect family. The first ramson note date from the fourth. Before the fourth, Charles had taken several trips to Ny,to make some test flights on a Helicopter. My second notice: How can a man, whodidn't speak any english at all, so The Fbi had to use a interperter to understand what was being said, so how w! as he able to write any english,,like a ransom note..This story is all true, and I truly believed what I had heard. This was like a confession before his death. He had held it all in, since at that time they and all friends and neighbors were told by the local law enforcement to forget all they know, or else. There was once a tape recording of this admission, thatcame up missing 3 yrs ago shortly after hisdeath.
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Post by rick62pi on Apr 9, 2006 22:35:22 GMT -5
Kathy/Carol...didnt Charlie go to Elizabeths Daycare in Engelwood in the Fall of 1931? Wouldnt folks see him there every day? Maybe Charlie first had overt seizures after Xmas 1931? this is when Violet and Ollie first started taking tea with Fisch? Also, to confirm your point, Miss Cummings was conveniently replaced by Miss Root...but she was Breckenridges step-daughter!! Another insider/
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Post by Rita Witt on Apr 9, 2006 23:34:39 GMT -5
It is interesting there is no family visitation regarding Charlie or comments his childhood progress. The location CAL moved to is in the middle of New York to Washington Research locations, and Carrell would access to many such facilities becaues of his training with war wounds.
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kathy
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by kathy on Apr 10, 2006 11:29:28 GMT -5
many childhood conditoins wouldn't necessarily cause any deformity as in a seizure disorder. here is what i found in chap. 189 of the mereck manual (i only have the 16th ed.) this chap. is "seizure disorders in the newborn" to paraphrase...seizures can arise only from an abnormal CNS discharge, but this may be from....or secondary to a systemic or metabolic problem (ANOXIA...) Other causes of seizures in newborns are more difficult to diagnose and treat include the sequelae of HYPOXIA.....the longer seizure activity continues, the more likely the infant is to have later neurologic impairment (eg. cerbral palsy, mental retardation). I dont know but it seems to mme if the Lindberghs took a 10hour flight with very little O2 and the mother was ill from the experience, they would have been incredib;y lucky if the baby was normal!
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Post by rick62 on Apr 10, 2006 11:39:18 GMT -5
Carol--the Ellis Parker Tribute page is very solid background: www.fullerton1.com/mainmenu.htmlEllis Parker was one of the group of detectives Governor Hoffman called upon to help solve the case. Others included: Dr. Erasmus Mead Hudson/ Leon G. Turrou The new book coming out in August is cameoed here too/
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Post by carol on Apr 10, 2006 12:24:51 GMT -5
Rick, Yes, I'm familiar with Governor Hoffman's reinvestigation into the case and Parker's involvement. Parker was originally called on by Governor Moore to get involved. I'm looking forward to reading the new book about Parker.
I think that Charlie's problems were probably caused by the flight Anne and CAL took when she was 7 months pregnant and suffered oxygen deprivation, which can cause cerebral palsy in unborn babies.
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Post by rick62 on Apr 10, 2006 13:08:42 GMT -5
Kathy/Carol.....hair abnormalities can indicate underlying problems during infancy:
Three hundred and twenty two hair samples were submitted. Microscopic changes were analysed in the light of clinical information categorised as: (1) erythroderma, (2) neurological impairment, (3) immunological/haematological defect, (4) ectodermal dysplasia, (5) abnormal hair only, and (6) non-specific/absent clinical details.
Results: Abnormalities were evident in 49% of the samples. In 25%, the changes were compatible with specific diagnoses including Menkes disease, Netherton’s syndrome, trichothiodystrophy, Griscelli and Chediak-Higashi syndromes, monilethrix, uncombable hair, and loose anagen syndromes. In respect of the clinical presentation groups noted above, diagnostic changes were seen in 41%, 32%, 33%, 0%, 29%, and 0%, respectively.
Something must have alerted the family to Charlies illness very early on to get hooked up with Carrell?
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Post by rick62 pi on Apr 10, 2006 14:27:35 GMT -5
Carol....the list of Charlies possible defects gets longer and longer. Would cerebral palsy have made his head large or misshapened? Although Ana has not seen any photos showing head changes its because "there arnt any photos of Charlie after his 1st birthday"!! Absolutely confounding that photos were verboten? Olde time photos were used for the search poster/
1, Mental retardation 2. Epilepsy 3. Deaf and dumb 4. severe ricketts 5. cupped toes 6. nodules on his hair? 7. square head (from Dr. Van Ingen)
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Post by elyssa on Apr 14, 2006 7:58:13 GMT -5
Does anyone have record of the time period Charlie was at Elizabeths daycare? Maybe it was during this time that someone noticed there was something wrong with Charlie and that's why he was removed. They needed a reason to take him out so they blamed Elizabeth.
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Post by rick62pi on Apr 15, 2006 2:07:20 GMT -5
Elyssa/ you could be right. Maybe at first the family dismissed any apparent "slowness" as lack of socialization with other kids? So, the fix was to become the youngest kid at the Nursery. im thinking Fall of 1931 when Charlie was 18monts. But, this public exposure may have exaserbated the defects. I do recall that Charlie was left to play by himself after some play yard bully punched him and knocked him down. The whole issue of "not going back to Englewood" on Monday 28 Feb may tell us volumes about Charlies health problems. Something more acute may have prevented travel and not any colde? Also, Wayne Jones reported in Murder of Justice that Charlie was taken to Johns Hopkins Med Center for tests. This too would not be for any colde. Its still unsettling to think the kidnap is the remedy for any of these problems?
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Post by elyssa on Apr 15, 2006 13:14:47 GMT -5
members.aol.com/mmel71/images/Lindy/BabyLindbergh2.JPGCan anyone blow up the picture of Charlie sitting in the chair, His right hand looks strange, can't make out the fingers, and when it's blown to size allowed you can see the image of a face. If I'm not mistaken the body found was missing an arm, if it was the right arm & hand it could have been to keep anyone from knowing there was something wrong with it. Are there any more pictures of Charlie with his hands showing? All I've seen are head shots, and the ones here that are somewhat blurred.
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elyssa LEFT HAND not the right
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Post by elyssa LEFT HAND not the right on Apr 15, 2006 13:19:14 GMT -5
Sorry it's Charlies LEFT HAND that looks strange.
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Post by elyssa will rogers on Apr 15, 2006 17:13:20 GMT -5
In one book I read it mentioned a man visiting the Lindberghs, he talked about how cute little Charlie was and I think said he was playing with a ball. I'm not sure as I'm going by memory but I think his name was Will Rogers, can anyone confirm this? Who ever it was saw the child and spent some time with him watching him play.This person would have noticed any handicaps if they were visible. This is the only time I read of anyone seeing the child other than family, I don't remember the childs age at the time. Can anyone tell us who this person was and how old Charlie was at the time?
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Post by rick62 on Apr 15, 2006 19:50:31 GMT -5
Good thought elyssa/ Will Rogers was just another All American Icon. Downhome and folksy. he may have met the lindberghs thru Herbert Hoover the Pres. who counted Ford, Edison and Guggenhiems amonst thier friends. Kennedy says Will Rogers saw Charlie in mid Feb 1932 two weeks before the snatch. Maybe it was bad manners to say "is he mentally retarded"? In 2-3 weeks time he would disappear/ pg 51 Dont babys develope at wildly differing rates so you cant be certain away if there is a problem? Dr. VanIngen dodged the entire issue by saying "I cannot identify the remains as Charlie"--thus avoiding all issues. Where there is smoke there is often fire?
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Post by Rita Witt on Apr 16, 2006 19:46:55 GMT -5
To Rick, Elyssa I believe that Will Rogers comments were used almost like testimonials that the child was there in good health. I remember these these comments from radio news brodcasts of that period. The need for testimonial from a legendary media hero makes the comments even more suspicious as Laura Vitray observed in her book.
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Post by elyssa to rick62 on Apr 18, 2006 21:20:35 GMT -5
Just wondering if Charlie could have had a deformity of the hands and/or feet that was beginning to be more noticeable or beginning to hinder his progress in life, such as doing things for himself. Would he have had to have constant care if he had lived?Would his problems get worse and need alot of medical care? If so Little Charlie could have become an expensive child to provide and care for in the future, (unless something was done to prevent future problems for the family).
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Post by rick62 paye on Apr 19, 2006 4:26:22 GMT -5
"Doth thee protest too much" I say to the family? Why would there be so many so=called unsubstantiated rumors about Charlie if something wasnt amiss? Simply because Charlie was hidden from public view and no photos were permitted or taken? Well maybe. But I found one quote or reference that Betty Gow was supposed to record Charlies developement on film "once a month" during the Trip to the Orient in July Aug Sept 1931. So when Charlie turned up missing why werent these photos sent out to the media? Also, wasnt there a haircutting incident just a week or two before Charlies hiding? If he did in fact, have all his curls cut off at a barber, then WhY put out 1st birthday photos with curly hair? No, I dont think anyone is being crass or unkind or just taking potshots at Charlie....hes dead or missing. The Family Itself caused all this con-troversy by acting weird themselves. Then trying to make excuses that their own behavior was above reproache? I fugure this, at the very least there should have logicallly been some family photos of Charlie at Christmas time to provide to the Press when hes gone. Something is amiss there. As for deformaties, well, the time period between 1 and 2 years of age is the time for oddities to develope. If Charlie was deformed or delayed in developement thats the time someone would notice. I tried to blow up Chalries hands in his birthday photos but it didnt work? To me the hands look drawn in anyways as do many of his existing photos...retouched. Was Miss Alva Root, the 18 year step-daughter of Breckenridge, ever properly identified or interviewed after having been out to Sorrel Hill the weekend before/ no--she was burried in the confusion. Mary Cummings was replaced by Gow--the key person that knows the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the Truth.
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Post by rick62 on Apr 19, 2006 13:45:54 GMT -5
Hi Ana....I think touched up is an understatement. I know Rita thinks that they were flat-axed doctored and recut with new heads, new hair, new faces, new arms and hands and feet. None of the 3 photos below look normal to me? The one on the right looks cut out? this dog wont hunt: members.aol.com/mmel71/images/Lindy/BabyLindbergh2.JPGWill the real Lindbergh Baby please stand up!
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Post by rick62 on Apr 20, 2006 5:44:44 GMT -5
One thing we should all try to agree on: no matter what the state of Charlies Health immediately prior to the "kidnap" his health takes an immediate turn for the worse on/after 1 March 32. There isnt a single witt of evidence beyond the milk bottle in Red Johnsons car that Charlie is "alive and well" after he disappears. By March 12th Condon and CJ are not even discussing how to prove Charlie is "alive and well" so no matter how many times they say it or post it in the New York American its another one of Condon's Lies. The Truth is "Charlie is Dead"--period. This is one thing everyone seems to agree on and there is no evidence whatsoever to the contrary. Maybe what CJ meant to say is this: "Red and Betty are innocent in the Death of Charlie"? thats a horse of a different color.
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Post by rick62 trooperII on Apr 24, 2006 11:35:52 GMT -5
Maureen The Lindberg Baby Tue Oct 4, 2005 18:32 67.181.5.33 Just red over the autopsy..."unusually large cranium" for a child this age.....the baby had a "cold" the Ped says baby had "rickets" wow....take a look at this: unusually large head, lower body malformation, cold symptoms all signs of Hydrocephalus...and if CL didn't like imperfection, my gosh!!! What is Hydrocephalus? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following excerpt is taken from Chapter One of Hydrocephalus: A Guide for Patients, Families, and Friends by Chuck Toporek & Kellie Robinson, copyright 1999 by O'Reilly & Associates, Inc. For book orders/information, call 1-800-998-9938. Permission is granted to print and distribute this excerpt for noncommercial use as long as the above source is included. The information in this article is meant to educate and should not be used as an alternative for professional medical care. Just click on the link: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=141545;article=32174;search_term=accident;show_parent=1
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anne50
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by anne50 on Apr 27, 2006 12:20:04 GMT -5
I copied and pasted this from the Ellis Parker Tribute page. I don't know who posted this or whether or not it's true. But what reason would whoever posted this have to lie? None that I can think. Then, there's the forensic analysis of Charlie's hair that was done by Stan Lane that should those abnormalities. COMMENTS: It is amazily that one of Charles best friends, who by the way live down the street, told me a story about the kidnapping before he died. First, Ihave read every story, newspaper and article on this subject,and nowhere does it mention that baby was mentally handicapped. This friend of Charles, that the baby was never seen outside of the house, except by pictures only. The friends of the family were never able to see the baby for theirselves. But as friends sometimes tell each other things, this things come out. Through all our conversatons, it always cameo to this: The family had planned this from the start, because of the embarrisment that would be brough their perfect family. The first ramson note date from the fourth. Before the fourth, Charles had taken several trips to Ny,to make some test flights on a Helicopter. My second notice: How can a man, whodidn't speak any english at all, so The Fbi had to use a interperter to understand what was being said, so how w! as he able to write any english,,like a ransom note..This story is all true, and I truly believed what I had heard. This was like a confession before his death. He had held it all in, since at that time they and all friends and neighbors were told by the local law enforcement to forget all they know, or else. There was once a tape recording of this admission, thatcame up missing 3 yrs ago shortly after hisdeath. Who made the admission on the tape that is now missing? Was it the friend of the Lindberghs?anne50
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