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Post by rick62 on Mar 28, 2006 17:34:15 GMT -5
this is a post from.....January 2006 on the olde Board:
1. Condon describes Fisch's stature to a T.....hacking cough, floppey ears, 5'6". 130 pounds. [When he isnt describing Paul Wendel or John Gorch as CJ of course] 2. Fisch is the best candidate to be performing acrobatics off a 9ft gate and egually good candidate for climbing in Charlies window too for that matter.. 3. Fisch had an airtight alibi for 1 March 32 over at the Junges provided by Charlie the pieman Schleser. 4. Fisch must have ended up with the ransom money because he spent most of 1933 laundering it in the Bronx with Fritz. 5. Fisch was good at mirroring others in a con. He became whatever needed like a cameleon to get what he wanted which was often "mony". Fisch could con Condon out of his shorts--if JFC wanted to play Pops, then Fisch would play Boy. Fisch always the actor, like Kevin Spacey as Kaiser Soze. 6. Fisch knew all the players in the case and was a good candidate for mastermind: Violet, Oliie, BRH, Joe, JJ Faukner, Mary Cerrita, Peter, Charlie Schleser and Paul Wendel. 7. Fisch could keep Condon from "seeing the goods"--unless Condons whole ploy was phishing for an extortion gang anyways. CAL/BRK/JFC settled for the sleeping suite. Not a good sorce of viable identity. 8. Since the entire blackmail operation was a Con by Condon--who better to play the con than Fisch, already guilty of smuggling and narcotic charges. Fisch conned everyone in his life. 9. Apparently, Fisch goes to visit Breckenridge in his office during the first week after the kidnapping and says "deal with us"? See Gardners new book for that. 10. Fisch likely knows Condon from attending the Temple of Divine Power/ thus Condon is a known quantity who Fisch can easily wrap around his little finger.
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Post by rick62 on Mar 28, 2006 17:56:13 GMT -5
Note from Ronells board/ added in proof:
bob mills for john sasser telling time by the moon Sat May 28, 2005 01:37 24.151.27.45
You're right, John. I've never read any colloquy on the question, "Did Hauptmann have an alibi for Mar. 12?"
He always denied he was Cemetery John. His conduct during the 2-1/2-year period, i.e., showing no fear of being recognized by Condon or the cops, convinces me that he wasn't. My best guess is that Hauptmann never offered an alibi for the Woodlawn meeting because he couldn't remember what he was doing that night. His alibis for other nights were always connected to something specific...picking Anna up, playing the mandolin with Hans Kloppenberg, celebrating a birthday or an anniversary. But if he'd simply been home listening to the radio on 3/12/32, it wouldn't have stuck out in his mind after all that time.
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kathy
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Post by kathy on Mar 28, 2006 19:16:55 GMT -5
I think the temple is the link to the insiders and the others. CAL couldn't remember where he was the day of the crime! All the insiders knew each other and Olly and Violet were part of the temple people. If CAL had allowed it and the cops were competent and had interviewed the staff as they did RBH this probably would have been solved. I'm starting to wonder how many of the staff were involved....seems like it could have gone on forever. these were the kind of people who would have been satisfied with $50,000 not organized criminals.
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Post by rick for kathy on Mar 28, 2006 21:13:22 GMT -5
Kathy...you are correct....Fisch is the link between the outsiders and the insiders, clearly not BRH. I cant tell at the outset whether the motives of the two groups was different? this may have been Violets dilemma? I find it difficult to believe that Betty Gow would give Charlie away for money? Maybe for medical treatment or to save him from CALs practical jokes? The outsiders seem to include all the money grubbers...to include: Schleser, DiGrasi, JJFaulkner, Condon? and Gaston Means/The Fox who claimed he was the lookout at the cemetary. Maybe the extortion gang was supposed to be the origninal kidnappers but they were trumped by Gow and Anne? Then Charlie gets sick and dies and Anne doesnt go to Trenton to even see him? but Cerrita and Biritella drop out when Charlie dies. They have been only self promoting thier con and seance game? OK so kill me/
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Post by kathy for rick on Mar 29, 2006 5:07:26 GMT -5
Rick, I think that if you consider Gow's emotional state athe time, she's depressed about living in the boonies and having some sort of an affair with Red, also shes been deserted the summer before in Maine with a baby and no money, I can see how Red might say 'look, these people don't mind being seperated from the little guy and no one is going to hurt him, he'll be back in a day or two and just maybe they'll appreciate him more!' Yeah I can see this happening. Maybe she stopped at the drugstore on the way to hopewell for paregoric for the baby. Befroe Jon even had a name these people left him for two weeks and headed to Maine. This was only 5 mons after the kidnapping and 3 months after their other child had been found dead
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Post by rick62 on Mar 29, 2006 17:28:13 GMT -5
Kathy.....I agree that Gow is in and would start to think that Charlie is "hers" after all the months of time time spent....like a Foster Mother. Maybe it was Betty that thought that CAL was abusive towards "her little boy" and decided to take matters into her own hands--eg hand Charlie over to Ellerson or Red right out the back door? Maybe CAL was ranting and raving that Charlie needed an operation to make him well, or normal, or to make him "perfect"...and Gow got scared that it would kill him? Maybe Charlie Jr was skeduled to go into the hospital at Rockefellar soon? Isnt part of Eugenics to make everyone perfect? But Kathy, Gow was living in Englewood, so was she supposed to move to Highfielsds when the mansion was done? Wasnt Cemetary John and John Condon enough of a red flag for Anne and Cal to choose a different name? What were they thinking and who or whom is Jon named after?
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kathy
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Post by kathy on Mar 29, 2006 19:13:25 GMT -5
What would Betty do in Hopewell except care for "her baby", hang out with Elsie and Olly? Red was nearing returning to work in Maine and with CAL's relationship with his mother-in-law questionable shes not going to be seeing him again. At Englewood she would have friends among the staff her own age. But like Jafsie says CJ assures us Red and Betty are innocent.
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Post by rick61 on Mar 30, 2006 8:45:47 GMT -5
I agree that Hopewell and Highfields is the end of the line for Betty. Maybe just missing her date with Red that Tuesday nite on some "whim" of CAL or Anne set her off. Betty could have been forced into some preexisiting plot, scam or hoax already in place at Sorrel Hill? Oh, you are so right! Condon makes a specific point in his dialogue with himself(?) to give both Betty and Red free passes to innocence. That is most suspicious and would not have come from inside his own head unless of course he wanted to erase any connection to his own guilt. There is no benefit for the imaginary CJ to let them off any hook. Its silly. This is Condons con/ But, on the other hand, Edgar Cayce implicates them both in his readings, saying something like "indirect involvement as indicated"? Not players but pawns. Do we have the phone calls straight yet:
Anne or Ollie calls Violet from Highfields in the am? CAL calls Ollie on the way home from Next Day in the pm?
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kathy
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Post by kathy on Mar 30, 2006 9:32:22 GMT -5
Cayce was an amazing person. He tried once to profit from his abilities and it was disastrous. he never again tried to use his talents for selfish reasons. His sons wrote a book about readings Cayce gave that proved unreliable. there was some question as to his southern accent confusing the Lindbergh reading. for example; the term macadam (tar) road was confused with McAdam Rd (name of road) At the very least CAL was foolish for trusting the staff and to me its pretty unbelievable
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Post by rick62 on Mar 30, 2006 12:41:23 GMT -5
well, unless like Condon, CALs generousity and trust was totally selve serving. There may have been things he did not want Betty adn Ollie asked. Espeically if they had insider knowledge of what "may" have befallen Charlie. Along the same lines, those that dismiss out of hand any insider participation in this Immaculate Deception are delusional and in total denial. You cant pull this whole thing off as a lucky break that all the pieces fell into place automatically on a night the entire family was suppposed to be in Englewood at Next Day Hill. So, we need at least one informant, and then after the fact we need at least one fingerprint cleaner/wiper. Not only does the dog not bark it doesnt hunt either. This house at Highfields is not really big enough after visitng it, for any one person at home to fool all the rest. i think they are all in on the actions together/ we just dont know WHY?
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kathy
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Post by kathy on Mar 30, 2006 13:38:07 GMT -5
self-serving could have been CAL's middle name. i've not been to highfields but i 've read the rooms are relatively small, not only that but people where in all corners of the house that night. Was it curtis that told CAL the key to the pantry was on the side of the front hall?
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Post by rick for kathy on Mar 31, 2006 5:08:50 GMT -5
Kathy...yes and the house being so small, how can someone get in and out noone hears them/ not likely or the dog Wagoosh either. Actually, I think it was in Wendels confession to Ellis Parker, that the key in the back door came up. this is just one more example of 1/2 truths, but we cant tell which half. Tony Scaduto thought from his interviews that Wendels confession was valid. AT least Wendel was from Trenton and could actually find Highfields in the dark...thats a big plus. Its hard to find even after you know where it is! The new 2006 book will be on Ellis Parker. Parker initiated the two crime theory. Lindbergh was the All American Hero during a time of depression--building up his huge ego was the goal of an entire Nation...this might give credance to any theory of the Wiemar Republic and Nazis tearing it down? Or at least wounding it to see it bleed. CAL could do no wrong and Hauptmann would see and know this immediately. One small footnote on this string..what if neither BRH or Fisch is CJ? Or what if there is no CJ but a figment of Condons imagination? After reading the accounts by Evalyn Walsh Mcclean and the "lookout" she spoke with from St. Raymonds....Im less certain and more open minded even about that? Darn.
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Post by kathy for rick on Mar 31, 2006 6:52:01 GMT -5
So many suspects, so little time! Ive always trusted Parker. If the man was a fake it would have surfaced much earlier than this. Wendal used paregoic on the baby's mouth didn't he? this makes sense rather than ether. i'm glad that parker was pardoned even if it was after his death. i bet that made wilentz furious. It is also harrd to belive tht an extortionist would sit and listen to condon talk for a few minutes let alone hours....WHY?
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Post by rick62 on Apr 4, 2006 6:11:01 GMT -5
Kathy....if the entire kidnapping is faked then that would meet Ellis Parkers criteria for separation between the "kidnap" and the extortion. By saying "separate but equal" doenst this imply hoax? eg CAL is paying someone for something that did not happen? ie hoax.
Noone in their right mind including Parker, or BRH can accuse CAl of the truth: faking the entire incident because nothing fits.
So in order to stop a huge missed carraige of Justice, Parker gets crazy Wendel to confess under soft duress. Wendel wanted to impress Al Capone anyway so it was a no brainer. You cannot accuse The All American Hero of killing his own son--its suicide as Parker found out anyways.
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Post by elyssa on Apr 29, 2006 12:15:45 GMT -5
is fisch really cemetery john or is john f condon-cemetery john - one and the same? Maybe jafsie was talking about himself when he spoke of cemetery john. could be that's who lindbergh named his second son after. It would make sense, that lindbergh wanted to pay tribute to the man who saved his a--...
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Post by rick62 on Apr 29, 2006 15:39:47 GMT -5
Will the real Cemetery John please stand up!
Elyssa -- i like the way you think. Its almost impossible to tell whoit really is? But nevertheless you have raised an important point in the discussion......eg..."how can we tell and how can we sort them out. Whats the evidence?"
there is a tendency to think that Jafsie is talking to himself and describing persons he thinks he knows....like Red Johnson the Scandanavian sailor or Isador Fisch the coughing student. Or maybe Condon is describing persons he think will be charged later. Its not beliveable that he could describe so many different persons. A caste of thousands. (Fisch and Nosovitsky look alike)
the only other person to actually see Cemetary John is Robert Reihl....the guard at Woodlawn on March 12th. Oddly he describes Fisch jumping off the column....but fails to identify Condon? But lets pick Fisch since we have him on this line. Then we could pick DeGrassi for the ltalian lookout.
In a further twist Harry Walsh states "other than Condon, Ben Lupica is the only other person to see the kidnapper" Walsh publishes this in November 1932 in the Jersey City Journal. Just think what that does to the crecibilty of Hochmuth and Millard Whitehead. they simply lied!! No question. But Lupica cant see the driver? So we are back to Condon.
Condon is on a phishing expedition. There is no kidnap and there is no Charlie. Fisch ends up with the Gold Certs but directly or indirectly? Hard to tell. CAL loves Condon because playing dumb patriot is his everyday standard.
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Post by Mouse on Apr 29, 2006 22:31:40 GMT -5
Note - I wouldn't call Highfields small. Rooms weren't what I'd call spacious - low ceilings, if I recall - but definitely not a small place! And it's quite conceivable, with that "U" shaped layout, that you could be in one part of the house and not here what was going on in another! Look again at pictures and you'll see what I mean. I'm assuming the Whately's had rooms over the garage, which was a seperate wing altogether.
There were floor plans floating around at one point. They may still be on Ronelle's board somewhere.
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Post by Rita Witt on Apr 30, 2006 21:42:09 GMT -5
If you spot the floor plans let me know where? I've been looking for plans for the house but have not found them yet.
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Post by rick62 Trooper II on May 11, 2006 8:08:49 GMT -5
Although many/most authors pick Isador Fisch over BRH for Cememtary John we shouldnt avoid keeping a longer list. AFter all, only 12 days after the kidnapping CAL has assembled the largest armada of law enforcement the world has ever seen to find Charlie--this in spite of his porders that only he's running the entire operation and noone should cross him? This includes: the army-navy intellegence services, NJSP, secret service, coast quard, BOI and Treasury. As such it is pretty risky for Fisch to meet with Condon in the Bronx. Unless he knows him pretty well and can trust him implicitly? CJ is taking a huge chance especially if Charlie is dead? There seems to be some understanding on CJs part that Condon is bringing the ransom money on March 12th? After all Jafsie posts "mony is ready" So right off the bat Condon whines "I didnt bring the money"? So who else is on our short list? Paul E. Wendel, disbarred Trenton atty. Charly Schlesler, the Knickerbocker Pieman and his buddy Joe DiGrasi? In the second meeting in St. Raymonds Condon claims that CJ "agrees" to a lesser ransom than required for Charlies safe return--as a gesture of good will? This is a very dangerous gambit on Condons part if in fact Charlie is still "alive and well"? Since the money was right there and available--why play dumb games? Well, maybe CJ is smart enough to realize that $20,000 of $50 dollar Gold Certs is a sure trap designed to identify the gang trying to pass them. Fisch would be the laundering expert in the know, savy enough to just "turn them down" as to hot to pass!
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kathy
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Post by kathy on May 15, 2006 6:37:57 GMT -5
I think the link between Fisch and Wendel has always been thought to be money laundering. Fisch was a client of Wendels and Wendel knew him to be a crook. However if each had his own role I can see how that all might tie together. Fisch knew Violet and Ollie and had contacts to launder the money. Wendel lived near the Hopewell house and could keep the baby. It was probably his car they used that night. Parker was a brilliant detective and I cant see him being so very off on all of this. I read i think in scadutos book that Wendel had devised the ransom symbols.
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Post by rick62 on May 15, 2006 8:15:02 GMT -5
Kathy...you are right! The link between Fisch and Wendel is just too much to be coincidental. It would be fascinating if Wendel was CJ and not Fisch? Julia claimed that Wendel had a relative living near to St. Raymonds. Maybe his sister. Julia also traced the B urlap B ag to Levenworth prison.
The symbol on the ransom notes is the most confounding puzzle? I dont see how Wendel could have know any occult symbolism for the Trinity? CAL as a mason was more likely to know that.
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kathy
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Post by kathy on May 15, 2006 8:46:13 GMT -5
Rick, Wendel's dad was a Lutheran minister and wendel studied many different professions if i remember right. I would be thinking that a classical education would include Latin, medieval history, church history, etc. I had a prof from France who taught history of the middle ages and he was so disgusted that the class didn't know the symbols for the four apostles. Maybe he was thinking of the trinity and probably would have had a Merserman table in his home. I wonder if he knew the Junges through the Lutheran (german) church?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on May 16, 2006 0:45:48 GMT -5
Kathy~yours of March 29th re: Cj clearing Gow and Red. How do we know but what that was one of JFC's Tales? JFC very probably knew that CAL didn't want Gow to be targeted and by extention her boyfriend. I think JFC's primary focus was in protecting his "Heroship" which would have to rest upon "his" real kidnapper being CJ. Also the "not the people down Soud" strikes me as another JFC prompt and I rather think there were many of those which on the surface seems to be original to CJ. I appreciate the points you make.
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Post by rick62 on May 16, 2006 3:05:36 GMT -5
Kathy and Mairi....the problems I have with Wendel and the Symbol are: to me the symbol is more "occult" than religious? and talk about obscure--it took nearly 75 years for someone to spot it even though it was on the cover of Wallers book? And in the Jersey Journal aritcles by Walsh? Second; I think also that the squiggles are "runes" or Nazi lightening bolts. This is both good and bad. At least this would conncect the ransom notes to the Mersman NSDAP! But not necessarly to Wendel. Oh Fisch! Too bad Wendel isnt Jewish? I agree with Mairi that Condon makes up CJ chat after talking to CAL. So why does CAl want to give Betty and Red a free pass if they dont know something extra/ something incriminating or embarassing or . CAL saw Condon as someone Patriotic that would do his dirty work for him and keep quiet. Maybe a known quantity and "open to suggestions" to coverup.
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Post by rick62 on May 16, 2006 11:58:14 GMT -5
Note added in Proof: Swastica plus lightening bolts (runes)!Please check this photo out. I actually saw this on Sunday at the Half Priced Boodstore in a book on Symbols: www.intelinet.org/swastika/swasti09.htmAll the runes you see are stylistic but "when you are in the know" you know when you see them! Nazis on the ransom notes and Nazis on the Mersman Tableu!
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