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Post by Mouse on May 31, 2006 22:05:14 GMT -5
OK, so the cabinetmaker/carpenter differentiation makes a little sense to me.
I'm not questioning Susan's statements, actually. I'm just not getting why Richard would order lumber that he could very easily get himself - if he was using it to make a device to be used in a crime. If it was actually Richard that placed the order, could the wood have been for another project? One that would have required finer wood, or wood finished in a nicer way? Everyone seems to be assuming it's for a ladder and I'm not sure why (it's quite possible I missed something!). I just think it would be suicidal to leave a possible trail back to oneself if one was preparing to commit a crime.
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Post by Mouse again on May 31, 2006 22:26:39 GMT -5
OK, so maybe I am questioning Susan Candy's story. I'm assuming everyone here reads Michaels board - Susan's last post (and if you're here Susan, I'm sorry but I am so-o-o-o-o-o confused!) has me really questioning the whole box thing. Can anyone tell me what 5 ply means when referring to wood? I'm thinking toilet paper and tissues and if it means something similar then I have another question! If this box is made out of wood and it's pretty thick, how the heck does CAL break it trying to fit that extra $20,000 in it? ? Am I just stupid?
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Post by rick3 Detective4 on Jun 1, 2006 7:35:31 GMT -5
Well, I think we should assume that Susancandy is being completely honest about what she was told. But herin lies the problem--shes caught up between her Grandfather and what everyone was told was the Truth in 1935.
Just because BRh goes into into a cabinet shop in 1932 and orders some wood...well does that necessarily make it the Lindbergh Ladder? Well, it could but i might not. So jumping all to conclusions might be a bad idea? EVen kevcon says that the order "put forth" or "put up" does not end up being the wood the ladder is made of/
Having Condon and Ralph Hacker teamup/ interact with Samuelsohn on the ransom box is another crazy episode hard to figure out. Especially inbetween the lies that Condon spins daily.
There isnt suppose to be a ransom box? Its a "packet"?
Why call attention to Samuelsohn?
Why say there is an antigue ballot box upstairs from 1836 on Condons desk?
Why have Ralph design the ransom box when its just a copy?
Why say the ransom box is 5 rare woods when its 5-ply-plywood?
Why not fit the money into the box without busting it?
Why did Condon throw the box into the bushes after all that trouble?
Why did Condon keep the key to show Samuelsohn when he goes back?
Why would BRH go back to Samuelsohns shop, seemingly innocent, 2 more times to buy lumber? Not the actions of a quilty murdereer at all/
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Post by Mouse on Jun 1, 2006 7:48:55 GMT -5
Absolutely! I'm not meaning to be a 'doubting Thomas', except it just doesn't make any sense (like everything else in this case - NOT!). Well, the way I'm reading that - the packets are how the money is bundled. The box is just the way to get them there. Why a wood box and not a suitcase or a satchel, I don't know. What were the specs on the box again? Again, my take was it was designed to hold $50,000 exactly. So any more wouldn't fit. But breaking a well made wooden box with your knee? ? That's where I'm having a hard time. (Well, one of the places I'm having a hard time! LOL) Yes, yes, yes!!!! That's what I mean! Do you think it possible that Richard was asked/told by someone else to get wood from AS without really knowing what the wood was for?
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anne50
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Post by anne50 on Jun 1, 2006 11:31:09 GMT -5
Mouse, I feel that Hauptmann was as innocent of the purpose behind the wood as he was of anything else. anne50
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jun 1, 2006 14:14:03 GMT -5
I guess we don't know what the Sketch to AS consisted of? A sketch of a completed "ladder" (or rack?)? Or merely the numbers of certain lengths or types of wood?
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Post by rick62 on Jun 1, 2006 18:54:56 GMT -5
Well now, I expect susancandy to be crucified, dead and buried just like Charlie on this wood evidence from her Grandpa. Its not going to be pretty. Every which way you turn its not "simple" and noone will take G-pas word against the Prosecution that stands already. Many have 5 to 10 all wrapped ;up in defencing the Lone Wolf Theory. Like warlocks and vampires they dont kill easily.
If the wood dont fit--you must aquit!
Yikes, right off the bat it is complicated by 2 extra visits by the pickup artists to get the wood cut right. But kevcon says hardly any of the original wood cut by AS is left in 1934. Is that due to the "half gang" or due to prosecutorial misconduct? First you sub in some wood from The Lumber Mill down South, then sub in Rail 16. Big surprize. So who can recognize wood two years later? After BRH is arrested.
Bringing Condon into play on the ransom box is just plain "crazy". NO, NO and NO there wasnt supposed to be any wooden box Pinochio! Oh yes, his nickname was little wooden head? the ransom money was to be wrapped up in a package, say newspaper or whatever. No briefcase, No shopping bag and NO box. Period. Knowing this, why is Jafsie bringing in a third party and his son-in-law Ralph hacker to design a BOX. To obfuscate, confuse, confound, puzzle, perplex, mislead, bewilder us all and the LKC for 1000 years. thats what Jafsie is paid for/ hes like the Joker/Fool in any card deck.
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Post by Mouse for Rick on Jun 1, 2006 21:13:58 GMT -5
Well now, I expect susancandy to be crucified, dead and buried just like Charlie on this wood evidence from her Grandpa. Its not going to be pretty. Every which way you turn its not "simple" and noone will take G-pas word against the Prosecution that stands already. Many have 5 to 10 all wrapped ;up in defencing the Lone Wolf Theory. Like warlocks and vampires they dont kill easily. You must be a real hoot at a party, Rick! What the heck did that first paragraph mean? ?? I, for one, am not condemning susancandy - she is just repeating what she's been told and what she knows from evidence that she can't disclose - but the whole thing is puzzling to me; it makes no sense to me. I have never believed the "Lone Wolf" theory (especially with Richard being the sheep in wolf's clothing!) and would love to make some sense of what Susan has been telling us. I figure there has to be a way to make all of the pieces fit.
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Post by Rita Witt on Jun 2, 2006 1:25:20 GMT -5
Hello to All. I started a new forum that has some interesting features, but have not completely mastered it yet. The forum allows pictures, personnel logos, and has a chat room for trying out new ideas on friends. It is a little more complicated but will get it operating I hope. There is only one post yet, and may not have set up the chat room completely yet. It is listed in the quick forum jump above.
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Post by Rita Witt on Jun 2, 2006 2:53:44 GMT -5
The vultures have attacked Susan on Michael's Board, but I suspect they are in for a fight as she has interesting information that agrees with what I know about the kidnap threats. These were of a general terrorist threat put out by the Roosevelt Communists, and that he made an army officer take the blame for Constance Threats as a presidential cover story for a crime. Constance threats were just one of many that were made to people of the right wing opposed to communists including my father who received such a threat, and later the sniping consequence on my brother and myself. Most people today have not read a great deal about that pre-war terrorist campaign, where hundreds of people opposed to Roosevelt and his Partnership with Stalin's Communism were murdered shot by his cowardly snippers. One main factor in this communistic change of history was Roosevelt's confiscation of the National Police Gazette, that exposed the criminals that were behind the Roosevelt push for war against Germany Here are sites one right wing and another left wing both exposing this crime. National Police Gazette sued for connecting politicians with gangsters. www.fastcase.com/Yahoo/Start.aspx?C=9fb6d359ee400430fcfc635c4bf671dca000 Dulles, McCarthy, label Truman a Pinko. www.afrocubaweb.com/assata4.htm Threats against the Lindbergh Family. www.beliefnet.com/Story/115/story_11545_1.htmlThreat to Lindbergh second son Jon. charleslindbergh.com/ny/100.aspAmerican Patriotic Friends Network discussion of Dulles, Nixon, Truman. "http://www.network54.com/Forum/145962/thread/1040939574/last-1041126388/God+Help"
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Post by Rita Witt on Jun 2, 2006 3:02:46 GMT -5
The vultures have attacked Susan on Michael's Board, but I suspect they are in for a fight as she has interesting information that agrees with what I know about the kidnap threats. These were of a general terrorist threat put out by the Roosevelt Communists, and that he made an army officer take the blame for Constance Threats as a presidential cover story for a crime. Constance threats were just one of many that were made to people of the right wing opposed to communists including my father who received such a threat, and later the sniping consequence on my brother and myself. Most people today have not read a great deal about that pre-war terrorist campaign, where hundreds of people opposed to Roosevelt and his Partnership with Stalin's Communism were murdered shot by his cowardly snippers. One main factor in this communistic change of history was Roosevelt's confiscation of the National Police Gazette, that exposed the criminals that were behind the Roosevelt push for war against Germany Here are sites one right wing and another left wing both exposing this crime. National Police Gazette sued for connecting politicians with gangsters. www.fastcase.com/Yahoo/Start.aspx?C=9fb6d359ee400430fcfc635c4bf671dca000 Dulles, McCarthy, label Truman a Pinko. www.afrocubaweb.com/assata4.htm Threats against the Lindbergh Family. www.beliefnet.com/Story/115/story_11545_1.htmlThreat to Lindbergh second son Jon. charleslindbergh.com/ny/100.aspAmerican Patriotic Friends Network discussion of Dulles, Nixon, Truman. www.network54.com/Forum/145962/thread/1040939574/last-1041126388/God+Help
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Jun 2, 2006 6:36:16 GMT -5
Mouse/ in simple terms: strict constructionists do not want to hear any information that challenges thier rock-solid conclusions no matter how much "open-mindedness" they profess. Period.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jun 2, 2006 15:45:19 GMT -5
Thanx, Rita, for the new additions. Very interesting references! Thanx All, for the great input. It's really helpful to me in my efforts to try to sift and sort. I really love this board. Even with some differing opinions it is so compatible and civil . Makes for smoother reckoning, me thinks. It has come to my mind just how many people JFC let in on the case --family, in-law(s), his buddies and no telling who else! So full of HIMSELF, it was just leaking out all over! Not much on , huh?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jun 2, 2006 18:10:06 GMT -5
On Susanc's Revised Time Line - I think it was last paragraph,(dated 1932) she refs to AS making replica of ladder. She then poses the question as to how AS would know how to do that unless he had cut the specs for the real ladder. I may not be interpreting that in the correct sync, but I thought AS had already seen photos in the news early on. And how is it the police came for replica in '32, if he hadn't told anyone what he knew? Am not into a challenge mode, here - just trying to understand.
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Post by Rita Witt on Jun 2, 2006 22:07:41 GMT -5
Thanks Mairi I think it interesting that differing philosophies had similar knowledge. My father received a stenciled threat over his Military Family Connections in Germany and Argentina, then my brother and myself shot by a sniper. According to police inspector Keyhoe the threat note was the same style as that received by Lindbergh, but the details were suppressed as evidence by having a military officer take the blame for sending the notes only. By accepting blame for note writing he would just just face simple discipline action by denying thereby avoiding the responsibility for any criminal actions carried out.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jun 3, 2006 23:10:15 GMT -5
Rita~~your reply 44 of 11:07: That's awful!! I had seen brief refs in other of your posts. Do i understand it had something to do with your Dad also selling the Police Gazette? Why did a sniper shoot at you and your brother and when was that? Again, that's AWFUL!! Rick~~ Great overview and time line(s)! I'll say it again--I really like the organized way you collect and present various points. And your sense of ;D !! Other Angels~~ Do we know how old Anna was in 1932? Does her approx age fit with "a young woman" AS described? Too bad AS took her ID to his grave . Will we ever know the ID of the two who picked up the wood Also, is this D. Morrow Jr the son who was born out-of-wedlock ?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jun 4, 2006 11:42:15 GMT -5
More on this "youngish woman" AS said came in with BRH. 1) AS knows who the woman is 2) Did AS mention the woman to the authorities? Or was it something he only mentioned to Susan? 3) Is there any clue that AS had ever met BRH before the wood order? So far it seems as if he had not. 4) If he had not, then what is so significant that he takes the woman's name to his grave? Was there something in knowing who she was which seemed like a threat to him? 5) Could his knowing her ID have sprung from a female he saw testify at the trial? 6) If it were Anna, what would be so unusual about a wife being along with her husband as he orders wood? 7) Did AS actually knowthe woman, or rather a matter of coming by her ID?
There is something so everlastingly odd about this,! Any ideas as to the "why's" of it?
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Post by rick62 on Jun 4, 2006 11:50:06 GMT -5
Hi Mairi and rita....MM and kevcon have rachetted up the time line to a short novella. Its even better now! All the pieces of the AS puzzle have yet to fall into place, and we still need to know who the woman and two young men are too. ~Mairi....dont fold your cards too fast. susancandy may still know the identitly of the mystery woman? I dont know if Anna is a young woman, but likely YES. Whats the big blankety blank SECRET here.?? All these chivalrous SOBs covering up for the "weaker sex"? So what if its Carl Henkel wife anyways--Carl knows the truth if he wants to hear it. But Violet Sharpe is young too/ and many otheres. Try to keep the relationship between Condon and Samuelsohn in focus? On top of Condons lies that is/ Does Condon ever say he has known Samuelsohn for years or just that he recognizes him? Obviously, the identity of the two young men is KEY to solving this Wild Goose Chase? While I am thinking about it, please remember that one man has bulging eyes and has been mentioned multiple times...even so far as taking care of the Charlie by either mary Cerrita or Edgar Cayce.....? I think it is Henry Leopold?? Other young men we know: Fred "Fritz" Aldinger, Duane Baker, Red Johnson, "fill in some blanks, oh yes Taldsdorf, who else oh yes Henry Ellerson
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jun 4, 2006 12:07:28 GMT -5
Rick~ I've missed knowing about the "bulging eyes" and who Henry Leopold is. Who is Taldsdorf, please? I'll do some reviewing on the other names you mentioned. Yes I certainly do agree that the two men are the key! JFC~ Along with his tall tales, might he also be having some "pre-senile" moments? Sometimes it smacks of that, do you think?
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Post by rick3 Detective on Jun 4, 2006 16:21:20 GMT -5
mairi/ sometimes its me and the senior moments?
Henry C. Liepold was the end of a winding path leading from the "JJ Faulkner" note thru Jane Faulkner, and Carl Geissler to Liepold. Henry committed suicide, just like Violet Sharpe, rather than take one more interview by cops?
One or both mediums said that a man with bulging eyes was overseeing Charlie after his snatch/ I was just trying to confirm if it could have benn Liepold. Its a bit like the stooped shoulders of the lookouts at Woodlawn and St. Raymonds. A physical characteristic that leaves a lasting impression.
Frank Taldsdorf was also a carpenter that hired BRh for a few months in the years before the kidnap. Just another name and person who knew BRH> No known association with Charlie Jr. Just trying to guess who picked up the ladder wood, if it really was ladder wood? Or AG Wilintzs imagination.
Condons mind must fade in and out...but how so conveniently when he wants to forget something or misconstrue.
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Post by Rita Witt on Jun 4, 2006 23:51:23 GMT -5
Mairi, Just got back and noticed the reply on the sniper. It is a sad part of censored American History that our leader into wartime was so desperate to fulfill his wartime dreams, used his faithful military accomplices who would send threat letters then do the sniping act creating fear in their opponents. My brother was hit in the hip , and I was hit in upper right rib breaking three and top shoulder bone.
At that time he was not involved in selling the magazine, but had contributed to the intelligence information they had published on Roosevelt's and Stalin's future plans for America. The threat over the magazine sales came in around 1970, and I was present when he was told they would close his business if he did not stop selling The National Police Gazette. He was told only re-investing proceeds from the magazine sales into Bonds for Israel could save his business.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jun 28, 2006 17:23:20 GMT -5
I read on Ronelle's board-- and I believe this was related by Anna Hauptmann--that when Frederickson's bakery was moved-Nov 1932, BRH built a "counter", there. Wonder if materials for that may have been one of the subsequent trips to AS's? It might also suggest he was doing carpentry jobs on his own?
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Post by Rita Witt on Jun 29, 2006 23:13:06 GMT -5
Hi Mairi Hauptmann would have needed cabinet maker hardware and tools. The hinges, drawer guides, and various brackets are special and advice may have been needed. I have read that was well known carpenter for just such custom jobs, and can't see how other forums make issue belittling his income and work trying to give an impression of desperation. If he was in demand for custom work he had Little time to case a kidnap so far away from home.
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Post by rick62 on Jul 4, 2006 17:42:35 GMT -5
happy 4th Angels/ lets review:
20 Feb 32: BRH orders the ladder at Samuelsohns Shoppe with mystery woman
25 Feb 32: Fred Smyder sees Condon and Al Reich in AS's shop looking at the ladder order on the floor
27 Feb 32: Ladder wood picked up by 2 young men/ maybe the architech is Ralph Hacker?
1 March 32: substantially changed ladder left at Highfields and Charlie turns up missing?
So, to me the entire Samuelsohn Saga refocuses our attention on John Condon and his family and NOT BRH? Primarily due to the keen eye of Fred Smyder?
Dont you think that the 24 year olde American woman accompaning BRH could be Condons daughter Myra Hacker? How else would AS know her exact age unless he knew who she was as part of his long friendship with Jafsie Condon? Just one big happy family/
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Post by Mouse on Jul 4, 2006 18:50:28 GMT -5
Dont you think that the 24 year olde American woman accompaning BRH could be Condons daughter Myra Hacker? How else would AS know her exact age unless he knew who she was as part of his long friendship with Jafsie Condon? Just one big happy family/ Well, if not Myra Hacker, then someone else that he knew well enough to know how old they were, eh?? Good catch, Rick!
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jul 4, 2006 19:15:19 GMT -5
Happy 4th Everyone! Hoping your day is bright and fun! Yow, Rick,~~~Did AS say the woman was American or just spoke English well? Myra Hacker didn't leave the country did she? Did AS say he knew her exact age? You seem to have more specifics than I've seen. That ladder seems to undergo SO-O-O many changes I don't see how anyone can be talking about the same object! It's as if we're are being SWARMED with ladders from every which direction! Ladders we run up and down like a relay race--three piece ladders-- two piece ladders--props--ladders that break with light weights--ladders which hold heavy weights! Why not Jacob's Ladder while we're at it??? Is Featherbed Lane the same as Lindbergh's driveway? Or the nearest road from which the driveway shoots off? Am having a hard time visualizing the lay of the land. Where might the kidnap car have been left during the crime? Hidden in the woods or back out on the road? Any help mighty appreciated
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Post by Rita Witt on Jul 5, 2006 1:55:18 GMT -5
The ladder may haver just been used to confuse others, it was used to frame Hauptman by his participation, and it may not have been the same one that was fit together on Samuelsoms floor. Samuelson said pieces were missing, and Chales Schippell said the ladder was the one he confiscated from the Skilman Home remodel job. If they had cased the job as claimed for a year they would have noticed Schippells ladder and perhaps requested a similar model from Hauptmann to eliminate any connection to themself and frame Hauptmann at the same time.
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Jul 6, 2006 7:38:50 GMT -5
Well, first the ladder. If you recall nearly everyone was trained like seals to focus on Rail 16? As if to defocus our interest in the remaining pieces? So, lots of other bits could be swapped out along the way to Trial to prove any obtuse point and noone would be the wiser/ huh? And all in 3 days too? Do you really think Rail 16 came from AS's shoppe?
As for the mystery woman: a young woman 24 years olde, 5"3 or 4", white, looked American, neatly dressed with nice appearance, wearing a Black Seal skin cooat, grey collar, small black felt hat with fair complexion and brunette hair? How can we confirm Myra Hackers age? She died in 1979 as per Lindykidnap/. What right does AS's claim to withhold her identity?
So lets recap: AS knows Condon and AS recognizes BRH. AS turns states evidence against BRH but covers for Condon and Reich. Condon and Myra deny knowing AS? BRH never knows what hits him/ about 17,000 volts. Sure looks to me that Condon and AS are in collusion against BRH?
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Post by Rita Witt on Jul 6, 2006 16:35:28 GMT -5
Hi Rick I think we have to retain that bit of skepticism, as you pointed out in order not not to be removed down another path like court made up as it went along. I think you have pointed out the numerous mistakes in the case, and I think we are presented with information that attempts to throw all forums off as smoke screens to make us forget the facts.
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Post by rick62 skeptic5 on Jul 14, 2006 7:23:37 GMT -5
Hi Angels...well nothing prevents us from trying to guess, and by golly, who the mysterious visitors to Abes woodworking shoppe are?
1. How many young attractive women did BRH know? Probably dozens as he was rather buff and free all day long? Does AS know the exact age...probably not. Hes just quessing at 24 or mid-twenties. One thing comes to mind...you seldom take a date on a kidnapping so right away this dont match up? So far, i think the only one eliminated is Violet Sharpe (so keep her in mind!) In the LKC, denials are notable. {Its not RED or BETTy says CJ!) So....maybe Myra Condon Hacker Jafsies daughter, or Gerta Henkel, Maria Mueller, Annas cousin lives nearby, Edna Sharpe returned to Europe shortly, Betty Gow would be sensational, any others? BUT, it must be someone who doesnt rat out BRH? Or turn States evidence. And why is AS protecting her name? [myra hacker?} As a favor to some friend? So what favor? Dating a married guy? To a wood shoppe?
2. Now for the two young men? Both short, one 130 lbs and one 160 poiunds. Must know BRH since he drops off the order. Lets see...how about Fisch and Schleser from Knickerbocker Pie Co>? How about Ralph Baker, Henry Ellerson, or Ralph Hacker Condons son-in-law? Must be someone we know is remotely connected to the LKC? How about Hans Mueller? His pistol found in BRHs garage and maybe he shot Charlie when he accidently fell out a window by accident?
3. Why does it take so long to discover that AS's claimes to have cut the ladder wood? After all, BOI agents come looking for the box maker in Sept 1933 long before BRHs is arrested? Art Koehler never says if the wood matches or doesnt now does he? We can only suppose that AS was not called so as to not blow up the wood eveidence compiled against BRH. Kind of like Hilda Braunlich who was run out of Flemington by DHReilly for saying that Fisch wrote the ransom notes! Dont want to screw up a perfectly good execution case.
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